It does seem only fair (and they're all about fairness, right?) that they be restored to the land from which they were taken. All part-and-parcel of the package, no?
@Rev. Paul: yep. And I think that the individuals clamoring the most about reparations represent the segment of that community that has resisted assimilation for over a century. Thus, refusing to assimilate, they have indicated their inability to fit in as US citizens, and would be better off being repatriated, where presumably they'd find happiness.
Refusing to assimilate? You mean like the black children who had to run the gauntlet of angry, screaming Southern whites in order to attend an integrated school? That kind of refusing to assimilate?
@wally: yah, and the ones who had to "run the gauntlet" of angry, screaming Northern whites, too. Such as in Boston. The Ku Klux Klan found very fertile soil in the North, Walt. Don't let that stop you perpetuating the old stereotype, though.
You can pretend the preponderance of the resistance to school integration wasn't in the South if you like, that's your prerogative. That wasn't my point anyway.
@wally: the preponderance of the resistance was in the South, true enough. By remarkable coincidence, so was the preponderance of the black population.
You had a point other than the usual liberal redneck-bashing? Pity you didn't express it.
Let me try to express it again: the black schoolchildren, the blacks who tried to get served at lunch counters, who tried to vote, who tried to ride in the front of busses, were not the ones refusing to assimilate. It was the whites who were refusing to assimilate them.
...and yes, the preponderance of all the aforementioned actions took place in the South. To assert that this was merely a function of population figures requires turning a blind eye to a whole lot of history. As I say, it's your prerogative, but as you say: pity.
Assimilation is required of the immigrant/minority population, not the resident/majority population.
Your point is part of a chicken-and-egg quandary: do blacks fail to assimilate because of white racism, or do whites become racist because of failure by blacks to assimilate? Those blacks who try the hardest to assimilate into the dominant culture are condemned by the black majority as sellouts and called rude names such as Uncle Toms, Oreos, and house n*ggers.
@wally: and my basic point in this debate is that of Theodore Roosevelt, who spoke of "hyphenated Americans" over 100 years ago, before blacks self-identified as "African-Americans:"
There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all... The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic... There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.
@wally: so I take it we can put you down in the "favors reparations" column. Typical, since it's someone else's money you're willing to be generous with. Who's to pay them, Walt? All the white citizens in the US? Only southern whites? Only those whites who are descended from slaveowners (I'm one of these, by the way)? Gates' article was about the complicity of African blacks in the slave trade, are we going to send them a bill, as well? Are reparations going to end violence and criminality far out of proportion to blacks' representation in the US population? Do you think that forcing whites to pay reparations is going to improve relations between the races? Rather the opposite, I'd think.
Something you need to remember is that reparations are for the fact of slavery only, not persecutions of blacks since slavery ended. If blacks have been persecuted in the US, they've also been the recipients of billions of dollars in tax largesse in the form of welfare and other social programs. Is there some sort of balance sheet available so that we can see the list of grievances in one column, and the amount of government handouts received in the other column?
@wally: if at times I have treated you as a liberal caricature, it's because I've yet to find a single aspect of the liberal agenda that you disagree with. Here on my blog and in our discussion in Norfolk, I've mentioned places in which I don't walk in lockstep with the conservative agenda: universal healthcare being one example, higher burden of proof in death penalty cases, for another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to hear you mention a single instance in which you feel that conservatives have a valid point or that liberal thought on an issue is wrong. If, then, I attack you as if you are stuffed with straw, you might consider that you've placed a lot of that straw yourself.
Here are some direct quotes from my correspondence with you:
I think Democrats have been by far the biggest offenders on the subject of race,
Just for the record, I'm no fan of Harry Reid's, and would like to see him ousted,
I'm not at all in favor of "coddling" criminals, or giving them shorter sentences just because they're nice people.
Thanks, Robert, I'm happy to have my preconceptions punctured.
the healthcare debate needs the concern for fiscal responsibility that conservatives would bring, if they would just come to the table. And it was dumb to leave out any kind of tort reform
It’s possible for a reasonable person to conclude that military tribunals are the way to go
to me this [Gore blaming recent rainy weather on global warming] seems like propaganda of the worst sort
Bob, I acknowledged phony posturing on the left regarding climate change.
TV shows have been in lockstep for years in promoting liberal values, many of which are distasteful to a large segment of our society.
I do believe that the culture industry has a lot to answer for: drumming sexuality into the minds of our children, glorifying violence, and contributing to the general coarsening of our society.
@wally: My apologies, I stand corrected. A couple of those would have sufficed. Sorry for the delay in reply, was out visiting my mother at the nursing home and eating lunch.
Don't use my blog to sell your products, whether it be goods, services, or Islam. Don't insult me or other commenters. Other than that I'm pretty tolerant.
It does seem only fair (and they're all about fairness, right?) that they be restored to the land from which they were taken. All part-and-parcel of the package, no?
ReplyDelete@Rev. Paul: yep. And I think that the individuals clamoring the most about reparations represent the segment of that community that has resisted assimilation for over a century. Thus, refusing to assimilate, they have indicated their inability to fit in as US citizens, and would be better off being repatriated, where presumably they'd find happiness.
ReplyDeleteRefusing to assimilate? You mean like the black children who had to run the gauntlet of angry, screaming Southern whites in order to attend an integrated school? That kind of refusing to assimilate?
ReplyDelete@wally: yah, and the ones who had to "run the gauntlet" of angry, screaming Northern whites, too. Such as in Boston. The Ku Klux Klan found very fertile soil in the North, Walt. Don't let that stop you perpetuating the old stereotype, though.
ReplyDeleteYou can pretend the preponderance of the resistance to school integration wasn't in the South if you like, that's your prerogative. That wasn't my point anyway.
ReplyDelete@wally: the preponderance of the resistance was in the South, true enough. By remarkable coincidence, so was the preponderance of the black population.
ReplyDeleteYou had a point other than the usual liberal redneck-bashing? Pity you didn't express it.
"Pity you didn't express it." No arrogance there.
ReplyDeleteLet me try to express it again: the black schoolchildren, the blacks who tried to get served at lunch counters, who tried to vote, who tried to ride in the front of busses, were not the ones refusing to assimilate. It was the whites who were refusing to assimilate them.
That was my point.
...and yes, the preponderance of all the aforementioned actions took place in the South. To assert that this was merely a function of population figures requires turning a blind eye to a whole lot of history. As I say, it's your prerogative, but as you say: pity.
ReplyDelete@wally: Wikipedia article, "African-American Ghettos." The word ghetto came into common US use in the northern US.
ReplyDeleteAssimilation is required of the immigrant/minority population, not the resident/majority population.
Your point is part of a chicken-and-egg quandary: do blacks fail to assimilate because of white racism, or do whites become racist because of failure by blacks to assimilate? Those blacks who try the hardest to assimilate into the dominant culture are condemned by the black majority as sellouts and called rude names such as Uncle Toms, Oreos, and house n*ggers.
@wally: and my basic point in this debate is that of Theodore Roosevelt, who spoke of "hyphenated Americans" over 100 years ago, before blacks self-identified as "African-Americans:"
ReplyDeleteThere is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all... The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic... There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.
Good Lord, Bob, whites persecuted blacks for generations before assimilation was remotely possible! Chicken and egg quandary? You've gotta be kidding!
ReplyDelete@wally: so I take it we can put you down in the "favors reparations" column. Typical, since it's someone else's money you're willing to be generous with. Who's to pay them, Walt? All the white citizens in the US? Only southern whites? Only those whites who are descended from slaveowners (I'm one of these, by the way)? Gates' article was about the complicity of African blacks in the slave trade, are we going to send them a bill, as well? Are reparations going to end violence and criminality far out of proportion to blacks' representation in the US population? Do you think that forcing whites to pay reparations is going to improve relations between the races? Rather the opposite, I'd think.
ReplyDeleteSomething you need to remember is that reparations are for the fact of slavery only, not persecutions of blacks since slavery ended. If blacks have been persecuted in the US, they've also been the recipients of billions of dollars in tax largesse in the form of welfare and other social programs. Is there some sort of balance sheet available so that we can see the list of grievances in one column, and the amount of government handouts received in the other column?
I am not in favor of reparations and have never indicated I was. If you'd rather debate a straw man than a real person, just let me know.
ReplyDelete@wally: if at times I have treated you as a liberal caricature, it's because I've yet to find a single aspect of the liberal agenda that you disagree with. Here on my blog and in our discussion in Norfolk, I've mentioned places in which I don't walk in lockstep with the conservative agenda: universal healthcare being one example, higher burden of proof in death penalty cases, for another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to hear you mention a single instance in which you feel that conservatives have a valid point or that liberal thought on an issue is wrong. If, then, I attack you as if you are stuffed with straw, you might consider that you've placed a lot of that straw yourself.
ReplyDeleteHere are some direct quotes from my correspondence with you:
ReplyDeleteI think Democrats have been by far the biggest offenders on the subject of race,
Just for the record, I'm no fan of Harry Reid's, and would like to see him ousted,
I'm not at all in favor of "coddling" criminals, or giving them shorter sentences just because they're nice people.
Thanks, Robert, I'm happy to have my preconceptions punctured.
the healthcare debate needs the concern for fiscal responsibility that conservatives would bring, if they would just come to the table. And it was dumb to leave out any kind of tort reform
It’s possible for a reasonable person to conclude that military tribunals are the way to go
to me this [Gore blaming recent rainy weather on global warming] seems like propaganda of the worst sort
Bob, I acknowledged phony posturing on the left regarding climate change.
TV shows have been in lockstep for years in promoting liberal values, many of which are distasteful to a large segment of our society.
I do believe that the culture industry has a lot to answer for: drumming sexuality into the minds of our children, glorifying violence, and contributing to the general coarsening of our society.
I hope these help to refresh your memory.
@wally: My apologies, I stand corrected. A couple of those would have sufficed. Sorry for the delay in reply, was out visiting my mother at the nursing home and eating lunch.
ReplyDelete